Jump to content

Talk:Sasanian Empire

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Former featured articleSasanian Empire is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 20, 2006Good article nomineeListed
February 21, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
March 20, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
May 14, 2008Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article


Right meaning of Ērānshahr or Ērānšahr

[edit]

Hello @HistoryofIran i want to say that the True meaning of Eranshahr is "Land of Kingdom Aryans". Warrior of Persosphere (talk) 02:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Warrior of Persophere. Sorry, but the current sentence is sourced by WP:RS. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the map

[edit]

I believe that the current map on top of the page doesn't accurately show the truest territoral extent of the Sasanian empire at its peak it excludes the lands in the east, the lands along the coastline of southern arabia leading up to yemen and some other minor inaccuracies MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example the map used in Sasanian conquest of Egypt wiki page uses a way more accurate map of the true extent of the empire and i dont quite understood why there is a worse map on the main wiki page for the Sasanian empire MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@HistoryofIran MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MrHappy2020. Do you have WP:RS to back this up? This sourced article [1] says that the Sasanians permanently lost control of Tokharistan, which the map in the Sasanian conquest of Egypt includes. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the article you mentioned and the part where they supposedly lost it says this "The province was, however, most likely permanently seized by the Turks a few years later, due to the absence of Sasanian coins from the period."
The wague language by saying "most likely" seems like even the source isnt sure if the turkics actually conquered the province before 620
Also the evidence is based on Sassanian coins not being found but the time period is only 21 years MrHappy2020 (talk) 18:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also adding upon this on the official western gokturk khanate wiki page it shows their greatest extent in 625
Heres what it says exactly
"Greatest extent of the Western Turkic Khaganate c. 625, after the Battle of Bukhara (light brown), and their southern expansion as the Tokhara Yabghus and Turk Shahis (lighter brown)"
and the specific vassal of the gokturks or their allies Tokhara Yabghus only begin their rule in the province in 625 CE–758 CE
This is from both their official wikis MrHappy2020 (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Possibly" would indicate that they're unsure, not "most likely". If you have WP:RS that backs up what you say, I'll gladly look into it. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The other wiki pages also dont add up the gokturks and their vassals power in the region begins in 625 and not eariler MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
alright i have found some wiki approved sources from the already existing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokhara_Yabghus page MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In 625, Tong Yabgu invaded Tokharistan and forced the Hephtalite principalities to submit.[15][16] He went as far as the Indus river and took control of all the intervening principalities, replacing Hepthalite rulers by Turk ones.[14]
14]"The definitive annexation of Tokharistan and Gandhara to the Western Türk Empire was to take place some years later, in c. 625, when Sasanian Iran became involved in the war against Byzantium that ultimately led to its eclipse." in Dani, Ahmad Hasan; Litvinsky, B. A. (January 1996). History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The crossroads of civilizations, A.D. 250 to 750. UNESCO. pp. 370–375. ISBN 978-92-3-103211-0. MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is from the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokhara_Yabghus page which was the gokturk group which invaded and conquered in 625 as you can see the area was still under Sasanian control until 625 when they conquered it when iran was busy with a war against Byzantium i also added the source as you asked and it seems to have already been approved by other wiki editors MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here MrHappy2020 (talk) 00:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The citation also says this afterwards; "The Western Türk army of T’ung Yabghu kaghan advanced to the River Indus, took possession of the most important cities and replaced the Hephthalite dynasties with Türk rulers. Of the territories annexed in c.625 by the Western Türk Empire, Khuttal and Kapisa–Gandhara were independent kingdoms after the disintegration of the Hephthalite kingdom". This does not seem to indicate Sasanian rule. And yes, there are some inconsistencies with Wiki articles, which definitely need to be fixed in their future with WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:52, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also noticed that the raw numbers for the sassanid empire at its greatest extent is 550
Which contradicts the map above which says 620 and it even has a cition missing Perhaps it would be wise to had multiple maps or maybe a gif showing the Sasanian empire at different points like they did on the roman empire wiki page MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this is a reasonable compromise as the lands further up in central asia were part of the Sasanian empire for quite a significant amount of time and most maps i have seen include them in the Sasanian empire at its greatest extent for one reason and another. However i dont currently have a source to prove that the exact date of 620 that that specif province was under Sasanian rule however i am sure i can find one as why else would most maps include it? MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Going back to the roman wiki page as a example it does a amazing job of showing both the empire at its greatest extent (if brief the provinces in iranian Mesopotamia only lasted one year or something) and to clear of any confusion it shows a detailed gif of the empire from its beginnings and to its end right under the first map there already exists a great gif on Wikipedia commons this page could use to show the overall territorial changes under the already pre existing map MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure a gif would be needed for the Sasanians. The Romans lasted +1000 years with loads of changing territories. The Sasanians did not hold Central Asia for that long either, as per Rezakhani, Khodadad (2017). ReOrienting the Sasanians: East Iran in Late Antiquity and the sources used here, with Shapur II already losing control of Bactria [2]. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the Sassanians lasted for 400+ years and their territory consistently changed the gif would give a better perspective for a beginner to Sassanian history and i even asked the opinion of other iranians if they would think a gif under the already existing map would be better and they agreed.
When i first started learning about Sassanian history i was always cobfused as to when a specific look of the empire existed and at what time this gif which already exists on Wikipedia commons would give someone else that is also beginning learning about Sassanian history that opportunity for a better perspective MrHappy2020 (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the pre existing map wouldn't even need to be changed as it is like on the roman empire wiki just put the gif under it so the overall borders of the empire over time makes more sense MrHappy2020 (talk) 13:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, we need WP:RS for all of this. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the gif? It already been approved for wikipedia commons and the roman empire one i couldn't find any specific citation as a source for it its just there and the map that already exists on the this page says "citation needed" so i dont understand exactly MrHappy2020 (talk) 20:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also i checked the gif is already used as the primary map on other language versions of the Sasanian empire MrHappy2020 (talk) 20:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Please see WP:OTHER. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am confused why doesn't the roman empire one have one then? shouldn't there be a citation for it? MrHappy2020 (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why doesn't the roman empire gif have a citation then? Also the current map also says "missing citation" what is exactly needed to have this gif added permanently on this page like i brought this up in talk as i dont wanna just edit this and then it gets removed the next day MrHappy2020 (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I am aware, the current map is the only map at least somewhat based on WP:RS. In other words, we dont have any better alternatives. The main difference between this one and the dozen others is that this one doesnt have an exaggerated eastern border. Sorry, but your Roman question is answered in depth by the afromentioned WP:OTHER. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
somewhat based? Is that why it doesn't even have a citation MrHappy2020 (talk) 09:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately I was so smart to not write any citation except the Šahrestānīhā ī Ērānšahr when I made it. It's also more in line with the afromentioned Rezakhani citation. If there is a better sourced map, then that should be added instead. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am confused as to what you mean in the first part of the paragraph but i will try to find sources for the eastern territories MrHappy2020 (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Elaboration on the first paragraph; I'm the one who created the current map that's in the infobox. But due to being lazy, I didn't add any citations in its description except one, which wasn't so smart. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You created the map? Alright as i said previously i will try to find sources to prove my argument of including the eastern territories at 620 MrHappy2020 (talk) 14:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
what sources did you exactly use when you created this map and what specifically made you remove the most eastern areas in 620? MrHappy2020 (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
at least in the meantime add a citation to the current map or something MrHappy2020 (talk) 13:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright i am bringing back this issue cause it seems like i aint the only that wants it changed i asked you before the sources for your map and you said yourself you didnt have them all the current one is fine for that specific time period but for the overall picture of the Sasanian empire over the 400+ years of their existence it could really use more context via that gif i was suggesting the guy who made it seem to know what he is doing and its up on Wikipedia commons itself we dont even need to remove your map at it is technically them at their greatest extent but some territories that were part of the Sasanian realm for a decent amount of time is just not shown there as we are talking about a empire spanning 400+ years So my suggestion is this We keep the current map at the top and add a citation if you are able to find the sources you made with the map as it currently lacks a citation then we add the gif under it as additional context for the empires overall size during different periods from its beginnings to the end when the muslims invaded does this sound fair to you? MrHappy2020 (talk) 11:59, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but we have already had this discussion, where I gave you my thoughts about this. It hasn't changed. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:17, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would give additional context that is critical for a complete understanding of the Sasanian empire thats why the roman empire wiki has both a map of their greatest extent and a gif showing the form of the overall empire and we have both its just we need to add the gif i asked for your sources for the map you made and you said you dont recall them we can still keep that map as it seems overall accurate however there needs to be additional context via that gif as to any casual reader of this article it seems like the Sasanians never expanded much east or north via central asia MrHappy2020 (talk) 12:20, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
via that gif as to any casual reader of this article it seems like the Sasanians never expanded much east or north via central asia
It doesn't suggest anything. It just shows the Sasanians at their greatest extent, that's it. As mentioned earlier, the Sasanians never held Central Asia for very long. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah and thats good but my point was that the gif would show the evolution of the empire over those said 427 years MrHappy2020 (talk) 12:28, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why not add it? We can keep the current map you made just add the gif under it similar to the roman empire wiki page it would both show the empire at its greatest extent and its evolution over those 427 years. MrHappy2020 (talk) 12:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:REHASH. I have already replied to all this before. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:33, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with my argument? I am just trying to have a civil discussion MrHappy2020 (talk) 12:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know you are, but we are going in circles. You ask a question/make an argument, I respond, then you ask the same question/make the same argument later. Just like when you earlier asked me for the sources of the current Sasanian map [3], despite me saying several times I don't remember them. With all due respect, please see my comments up above. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:46, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you dont remember the sources for the map you can understand why i am a bit sceptical however we can still keep on the page as it seems well made i just want the gif added so there is additional context for all the other periods of the Sasanian empire as it lasted for 427 years thats it MrHappy2020 (talk) 12:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Skeptical of what? I know you want to add the gif, you've made that clear, and I've already replied to that up above. Please reply to my replies, instead of repeating your earlier comments. That way, the discussion will actually progress. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:59, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument was that i needed wiki approved sources for the change adding the gif right? Thats why i asked for sources from your map so i could cross reference it with the gif to see if it was accurate but since you dont recall them how i am supposed to do that? MrHappy2020 (talk) 13:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A gif is still unnecessary per my comments up above. As I also mentioned up above, you need WP:RS for all of the depicted Sasanian territory if you even want to make a gif. Which you don't, and which I can't help with, sorry. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
and if i need reliable sources for a gif which is already on Wikicommons what about the current map thats why i asked which sources you used for it but you said you dont recall so how i am supposed to trust it? Alright fine i need reliable sources but what about the current map? There is not even a citation. MrHappy2020 (talk) 13:23, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You already asked this up above. Please see my previous comments. Sorry, but the next time you make the same comment, I’m not going to answer. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:16, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't tho you said yourself you dont recall the sources you used for the map and the map still lacks a citation so how is wikipedia approved with sources? MrHappy2020 (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong: As far as I am aware, the current map is the only map at least somewhat based on WP:RS. In other words, we dont have any better alternatives. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:14, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are somewhat based on the sources but when i asked what sources you used you dont recall? MrHappy2020 (talk) 21:20, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should re-read all my comments in this section. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just name the sources you used MrHappy2020 (talk) 21:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The correct meaning of Eranshahr with source.

[edit]

@HistoryofIran the true meaning of Eranshahr is "Territory of the Iranians" and not "Empire of the Iranians", my sources are https://shamela.ws/book/11800/14 and https://web.archive.org/web/20180102074116/http://damavand.news/?p=11304 and https://shamela.ws/book/11800/233 another exemple is https://ganjoor.net/ferdousi/shahname/esfandyar/sh7 Thank you. Qadri123 (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Qadri123. Sorry, but I fail to see how any of those links are WP:RS, contrary to Canepa and Daryaee. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sasanian_Empire&oldid=1265230498"